Irwyn L. Ince Jr. is the coordinator of Mission to North America, part of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). Formerly, he was a pastor at Grace DC Presbyterian Church. He is also the author of several books, including most recently, Hope Ain’t a Hustle: Persevering by Faith in a Wearying World (IVP). He is also a featured speaker at the upcoming 2024 Amplify Conference.
In the following interview, we discuss common misconceptions about hope, the beauty of the gospel, and how we can hang on to hope in the midst of suffering.
I love the title [of your book] Hope Ain’t a Hustle, and I just wanted to pick up on a couple themes that are in there, related specifically to evangelism. It’s kind of an unfortunate hallmark of the English language that we also use the word hope for something I wish for. How do we speak to today’s culture with a sure hope that’s not just ephemeral or, you know, based on how my sports team is doing?
Yeah. I’m a New York Yankees fan—a diehard one from my earliest days—and I can often find my emotional state riding a roller-coaster ride [based on how the Yankees are doing]. As Paul says to the Corinthians, if we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied—talking about the resurrection.
I think we meet people where they are and say we all have hopes and desires. Even if we think things are hopeless, it’s because we want to be hopeful. We all have things that we wish to be true or that we wish to see happen. How would things be if I could control things? What would life be like if I could have my way? What would life be like if I actually had the ability to exercise control?
Getting people to see that really that’s what my hopes are tied to very often. And seeing how much of that is actually centered on me, centered on my wants, my likes—and maybe it extends beyond me to my immediate family, right? My children, my grandchildren, my relatives.
But the greatest difference between that and the hope that the Scriptures talk about [is that] those are wishes. That’s a wishful thinking kind of hope. The Bible takes a completely different approach. Hope, biblically speaking, is not about wishful thinking. It is explicitly tied to a person. It is explicitly tied to the person of Jesus Christ. The whole trajectory of Scripture in the Old Testament that looks forward to the promise of God to renew the creation, to make all things right in his Son. And the New Testament is both looking at the coming and looking forward to what that means for the creation, including us.
So biblical hope is an embodied one. It is saying, How do we live in this world in light of the truth that Jesus is who he says he is, that he is indeed making all things new? That means we can live in a way in this world that is not crushed by the desperate, devastating situations in this world. [That] doesn’t mean we don’t lament, but our hope is not tied to things working out well. Hope is tied to the person of Jesus Christ.
The second half of that evangelism question is that “hustle” part. We are so used to being pitched to all day long. So we’re kind of immediately set up that anytime somebody makes a pitch that’s too good to be true, we’re just out of there. So speak to that “hustle” side of the title.
Yeah, the use of that word comes out of my own experience growing up in New York City, regularly experiencing the hustle. Someone is offering you something of perceived value, and it’s typically kind of outside the normal. New York City was this dude on the corner selling VCRs. Do I go to Circuit City and pay full price for the VCR, or do I find this guy on the corner? And the question in that transaction usually wasn’t the morality of the transaction—how did this guy obtain that VCR? I’m dating myself, by the way, of course. How did that guy obtain that iPhone? It’s usually, Can I trust the hustler? Can I trust this person—that I’m not going to go home with a box full of newspapers. Right? Can I trust the person who is giving me the message?
And that’s the connection here as it relates to the life of faith and sharing our faith in the current age. Because there’s so much, not just skepticism, but cynicism. And some of this is perception that the church has earned in the way we’ve gone about the life of faith.
Be that as it may, what we have to do is realize, oh, first I have to examine my own heart to make sure I’m not trying to hustle folk. And what is my desire in loving my neighbors in Jesus’ name? Is it to do a bait and switch so I can get them in the faith? Or is there a genuine sense in my heart: Yes, I’m grieved by the lostness of people, but I also have a sense of the love of God’s image bearers, that I believe everyone is worthy of dignity and of love because they bear the image of God.
Andy Crouch in one of his latest books, The Life We’re Looking For, gives this practice he has: In the airport as I’m walking and I see every person in all of their diversity, people I might be naturally drawn to, people I might be naturally put off by, I’m trying to train myself … the first thought in my head is, “Image bearer, image bearer, image bearer …”
So first, it’s my own heart, and that leads to this second piece to demonstrate that we’re not trying to hustle people. In this day, the importance of providing a genuine sense of belonging—that word hospitality, that word welcome. You know, I love Romans 15, I won’t quote the whole thing, it’s just the seventh verse of that chapter. Now, Paul is talking to the church, but he says, “Therefore, welcome one another the way Christ welcomed you for the glory of God.”
How did Christ welcome us? His welcome was a loving, active pursuit of us. And he said, this is how you welcome others. It’s a loving, gracious pursuit. It’s a sitting and being willing to be comfortable with the discomfort of diverse opinions and perspectives and thoughts that people bring to the table, maybe even at your own dinner table. And this ability to form these relationships over the course of time, actually earning the right to tell people about Jesus.
It demonstrates that you’re not trying to hustle or do a bait and switch. This is genuinely a walk of love.
People on both sides of the [political] aisle use this concept of hope for whoever [their] candidate is. And the church has been infiltrated by that messianic language and that kind of thinking. So how do we balance the fact that that our [ultimate] hope is in the future with bringing the kingdom of God on earth [today].
[Hope has] long been a part of our vernacular that is used by those in public political office, those running for office, those who have perspectives about them, that they are messengers of hope. That is a distinct difference from what biblical Christian hope looks like. That hope is always tied to, nationally, the prosperity of the United States of America. It’s always tied to America living up to particular ideals or an image that is based on our Constitution. And as a citizen of the United States, I want America to flourish just as much as the next person. I want us to have godly leaders. I want us to have a nation that is run by laws that are just and upright. I want all of that.
And at the same time, we are called to live as people of hope for a different kingdom. And so that doesn’t mean—and this is where it gets tricky—that doesn’t mean separation from being involved in the life of the citizen and the things that flow from that in our public sphere,
but being present in those arenas or areas as citizens of the coming kingdom, bearing witness to that kingdom, so that we act in a way that is just and upright. So that we promote what makes good for the flourishing of our neighbors, no matter what our political affiliation is.
So, if we find ourselves as God’s people being in lockstep with the full platform of any political party, then we are likely making an idol of that party. If we can’t find room for serious critique where our party’s practices or aspects of its platform are not aligned with the heart of God and seeking the good of our neighbors, then we’re just going along blindly, not as those who represent a different king and kingdom. So it behooves us as we participate in the political sphere, in the public spaces, to represent our king with faith, and being willing to even suffer reproach from our fellow political partisans for lack of a better word, because we’re not going along with everything. We’re willing to call out ungodliness and injustice and unrighteousness, and not just, Oh, they’re the ungodly ones, they’re the unjust ones, they’re the unrighteous ones, they’re the destroyers of all that is good, true and beautiful. But being able to see even within the circles that we inhabit, and be honest about that.
We tend to think of hope as a bright, shiny thing, but the way the Bible talks about it, it’s something that’s forged in suffering: Like in Romans 5, Paul draws this direct line [from] suffering to hope. So could you speak to that a little bit, the aspect of [hope] that we should expect to suffer as Christians, and how to think of that in a hopeful way rather than a way that leads to discouragement?
No one wants suffering. Nobody. Nobody likes suffering. Nobody wants to invite suffering. And suffering can cause us to doubt God’s goodness. It can cause us to doubt his love. It can cause us to doubt that even he’s real, whether or not we’ve believed a lie. And that’s why we need the Scriptures. Because there is a through line in God’s Word about the trials and tribulations that God’s people have had to endure.
David asked in Psalm 13, “How long, oh Lord? How long will you hide your face from me? How long must I go on groaning all the day?” And of course, we have Jesus, who the writer to the Hebrews says in Chapter 5—it’s amazing how much he connects Jesus’ life and his joys to his suffering—it says he learned obedience through what he suffered. And he’s making the point that this allows Jesus to become our perfect and great high priest. So he is able—because Chapter 2 says, “Since the children have flesh and blood, he himself partook of the same things so that he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and liberate those who are subject to lifelong slavery of the fear of death” (vv. 14–15). Chapter 12 [says] Jesus, “for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of God. Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted” (vv. 2–3).
When we endure sufferings as God’s people, it is not because God has forsaken us. It is not because God has turned his face away. It is a part of our life of faith demonstrating that even in the darkest of valleys, we actually have a joy that can’t be taken away, because we know that our hope is not built on feeling good all the time. Our hope is not built on things going according to our plans and desires all of the time. That is a hard message for us to actually embrace and live by, but it’s throughout the Scriptures. Peter says, “Don’t be surprised when you endure trials of every kind as if something strange were happening to you. But rejoice as so far as you share in Christ’s sufferings” (1 Peter 4:12–13). This is the paradox of the Christian faith: That people can have joy in the Valley of the Shadow of Death. That people can have a sense of peace in the middle of great, great pain. There’s a testimony of God’s faithfulness in the Scriptures and throughout the history of the church.
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